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 Post subject: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:15 pm 
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As some of you know, I sometimes use keiki paste to force old spikes to bloom out of season so I can harvest the pollen or use the flowers as seed parents. Unfortunately, sometimes the first flower or two is slightly deformed as in this case, and the next two buds look a bit unusual. Sometimes the buds that look like this develop into normal flowers but sometimes not.

My question is... is it possible, likely or unlikely that the genetic material in the pollen cells is mutated from the hormones in the keiki paste? Just wondering if I can safely use this pollen. I guess this is a question for Dean, Sean, Lou or anyone else that wants to chime in. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:18 pm 
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I wouldn't think so at all Jim. Hormones should just promote growth that might not otherwise occur. Not to say that it couldn't happen, but I'd lean that you are quite safe. Maybe the plant is t strong enough or ready enough to flower and/or the hormones drove bud growth in areas it shouldn't. Interested to hear other comments tho.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:20 am 
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I agree. I would not attribute such growth to a phytohormone treatment.

For one, they tend to be quite specific in their actions, causing one thing to happen, and having no other effects on anything else. Secondly, they also tend to be very short-lived, degrading rapidly once out of the bottle, reducing that chance of residual effects.

Then there are two, more practical reasons I feel that way: the hormones in commercial treatments are VERY dilute, and mutations are far more likely in higher concentrations. Then there is statistics: if you are the only one who has ever used the paste, or this was a common occurrence when it is used, it would be easier to assign a cause-and-effect relationship

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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:37 am 
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Thanks for your input guys, but I'm not asking if the hormones cause these deformed flowers or not because it did and it does. It also causes twisted and thickened spikes and sometimes even callus tissue. I usually wait to use the later flowers that aren't deformed but this is pollen I would like to use.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:02 pm 
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I understand Jim. I believe both Ray and I were speaking that the pollen should be unaffected with such a treatment. Use away!

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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:06 pm 
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I'm not so sure, Jim. My guess is that the deformities are probably not due to mutations but simply to growth-rate irregularities induced by the paste. There is no visible color streaking as you might expect if there were mutations during the construction of the petals. I'll know for sure in a few years (but by then, so will you), since I have also used pollen from deformed flowers, out of necessity.
PS Jim, did you get my email sent Nov 16?


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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:45 pm 
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I harvested the pollen from the first 2 flowers and in both cases, the pollinia were undersized, very hard and physically deformed. Pollinia were also fused together in each flower. I didn't try to use them.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:21 pm 
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Very interesting observation. Thanks for posting this, Jim.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 8:44 pm 
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I'm sorry that I didn't see this when it was posted. The correct answer is that phytohormones in keiki paste do cause mutations and I would not use pollen from flowers obtained in this manner.
Dean

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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:27 pm 
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stock wrote:
I'm sorry that I didn't see this when it was posted. The correct answer is that phytohormones in keiki paste do cause mutations and I would not use pollen from flowers obtained in this manner.
Dean

Thanks Dr.S


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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 8:34 pm 
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i put kieki pro on my kieki and had major mutations, but my wife loves it.lol


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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:52 pm 
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stock wrote:
I'm sorry that I didn't see this when it was posted. The correct answer is that phytohormones in keiki paste do cause mutations and I would not use pollen from flowers obtained in this manner.
Dean


Dean, do you have a citation/reference to this phenomenon? Are you talking about epigenetic mutations (e.g. methylation states, which CAN inherit) or mutation on DNA? I'm interested in how cytokinins can cause mutations at the fairly low dosage, which seems to be unlikely.


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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:15 pm 
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stock wrote:
I'm sorry that I didn't see this when it was posted. The correct answer is that phytohormones in keiki paste do cause mutations and I would not use pollen from flowers obtained in this manner.
Dean

I smell opportunity here. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:16 am 
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My experience with keiki paste is the formation of keikies, not flowers.

My other experience with synthetic auxins that were overdosed by too concentrated and too frequent application (think SuperThrive at a teaspoon per gallon every watering for two months) was absolute deformation in the flowers produced by the phals so treated, while no other plants seemed to be so affected. Fortunately, after discontinuing that level of abuse, the plants returned to normal flowering the next cycle.

That reversibility led me to believe the effect was a "toxicity" rather than a genetic mutation.

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 Post subject: Re: Pollen viability in keiki paste induced flowerings?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:32 pm 
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Location: Fairbanks, AK, USA
I agree that I'm not sure if cytokinins can directly induce flowering (another hormones, gibberellins, are shown to have this effect in some orchids). Cytokinins can "release" the side buds (meristem) and start to develop. So if there was another cue to initiate the flowering (such as lower temp) at the same time, cytokinins could help, but I don't know.

Overdosing of hormones (such as multi-potent auxins) would definitely cause developmental instability like what Ray has observed (same in human, and you can see the abnormal morphology of muscle builders). In addition to A, T, G, C, we now know that something called methylation of DNA is important in how genes are expressed (and it can influence the morphology). Further, we know that methylation states can occasionally be transmitted from parents to offspring for several generations (this kind of epigenetics is an exciting field of research). So if hormones can cause this kind of problems, the change in methylation states can be inherited in the offspring (and it looks like mutation). But I don't know a concrete examples of hormones influencing the methylation, so I was curious if Dean has an example.


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