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 Post subject: Duds or sterile orchids or poor breeders
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 11:15 am
Posts: 198
Location: Canada
What ever you want to call them, they suck.

This question is for everyone who does there own hybridizing?

It was only recently that I was made aware of the number of common phal crosses that are 4N. I am just starting to get into phal hybridizing and doing my own flasking and stem props. I want to save my self the time, effort, heartache and money buy not buying sterile, 3N plants.

So, my question is: Can you more experienced growers warn me of the common hybrids that you know of or suspect are 3N and therefore not of much use as a stud plant. I understand that Sogo Grape is 3N.

Thanks, I would really appreaciate it.
Kyle


Last edited by kyle on Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:06 pm
Posts: 2173
Location: Kanab, Utah
Hi Kyle. I suspect that not many growers or hybridizers are going to be able to help you here. Some of these you can detect yourself. Just keep in mind that nearly all large white, Pink, spotted, striped, and Taiwanese reds and spotted yellows are tetraploid. When any of these are bred to a species or primary hybrid ( or another small diploid line of breeding), you are going to create triploids. Many of these will breed and result in aneuploids which are sterile for the most part. Many of those nice multiflorals are triploids. So are any of the species crossed to Golden Peoker to creat "neat" Harlequins. For instance, A cross of Golden Peoker x violacea is obviosly going to produce triploids. Why breeders can't reason this out is beyond me. I suspect that some big orchid nurseries do this on purpose because they know that they can produce some really attractive and awardable flowers that will never be used for breeding. Sort of puts a crimp in the competition!
I could quickly put together a list of about one hundred currently available triploids if any of you out there would like to see it. I tend not to do this on my own because I really don't want to hurt any orchid growers business in any way. They have an uphill fight to make a living as it is.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 11:15 am
Posts: 198
Location: Canada
Hi Stock,

I would really appreciate a list of triploid plants, especially those made by Everspring. They have an 'outlet' here and thats where I will probably get most of my plants from.
If you would rather, you can E-mail me the list. My address is

kylelucyk@gmail.com

Thanks again
Kyle


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:28 pm 
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Location: Kanab, Utah
Kyle. Will do. I will look at their listings. After looking at the problem, it may be more effecient to simply ask me about a certain plant that you are interested in. At any rate i will list as many as I can. The list grows longer each day.
Dean Stock

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 Post subject: me2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:19 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:36 pm
Posts: 453
Location: Boston Mass USA
Dean:

I would be interested as well...
I would also have an interest in known 3n that were sucessfully used in further breeding (I guess 3n x 3n works, right?)

Thanks, John

PS I would really like to know if venosax equestris (Kuntrarti Rarashati) clone Bunker Hill is 4n, (there has been some talk it may be...) its a great breeder...
Thanks, John


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:05 am 
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Location: Kanab, Utah
Hi John. If you could use 3nx3n you would get hexaploids were are not very good either. There are so many chromosomes in hexaploids that they grow poorly and pollen carries many aneuploids. I have never found a 3N plant that has viable pollen. A occasional 4N results from mating a diploid to a 3N but finding them, if they occur, is a job. A few rare plants like Golden Sands 'Canary' put all chromosomes together in a 3N ovule and when mated to a diploid will produce some good tetraploid offspring. This is how we got the tetraploid grexes Golden Amboin, Liu Tuen-Shen, etc.
I have not seen the 'Bunker Hill' clone you mentioned. It would be relatively easy to check this plant by measuring the column width and the size of the leaf guard cells. If they are about 40% bigger than other plants of that grex then the plant is very likely a tetraploid (since it has good pollen).
Dean Stock

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 Post subject: Re: Duds or sterile orchids or poor breeders
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Crossig two tetraploids still cannot guarantee fertile progeny. If genome of parents originated from several species, resulting hybrids may contain mixture of different chromosomes unable to pass regular meiosis. For example, two tetraploids with chromosome sets AABB and CCDD will form sterile crossing ABCD. Jaroslav


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 Post subject: Re: Duds or sterile orchids or poor breeders
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:00 pm 
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While making sterile progeny is possible, the fact that there are thousands of tetraploid crosses that have been recrossed many times, all with viable progeny, means that the probability is so low that it is not worth worrying about.

The odds of me winning the lottery tonight are 53,000,000 to 1, but I might buy a ticket anyway.

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Carpe Diem


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 Post subject: Re: Duds or sterile orchids or poor breeders
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 2:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:45 pm
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Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Of course, use two tetraploids improve the chance for fertile progeny. Old tetraploid line is best, generations of fertile plants removed aneuploids.


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 Post subject: Re: Duds or sterile orchids or poor breeders
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:34 pm
Posts: 47
Location: Sacramento USA
I have heard of techniques using mutagens in excess to overcome aneuploidal issues. How I understood is that not much survives, but what does can revert back to a tet or diploid.


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