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 Post subject: Why novelty with intense color can't be made larger?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:46 am 
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I was asked "how come Novelty with intense color can t be made bigger? " on ebay.

It was suggested novelty like Phal Orchid World has larger flower at 7-8 cm.

There are two issues here. Most growers will not care how about ploidy - but the end result of a hybrid. It is judged at number of flowers and ease of care. The other issue is the definition of novelty.

Phal Orchid World is 3n - using a larger 4n yellow and pair with a 2n species (violacea/bellina). I don't consider 3n to be novelty - because it's a cross-over between subgenus phalaenopsis and polychilus. Novelty phal tend to be breeder's plants, collectible, something not like the standard complex. Since 3n Phals for the most part grow just well - they are cloned in large numbers. For this reason also I don't see 3n as novelty.

To me novelty from polychilus uses two species usually is about 4-6 cm. Most first bloom would be about 5 cm. Now excellent growing and fertilizer will yield 6 cm first bloom - but I'm referring to in general.

Phal Orchid World is using a 4n yellow x 2n species. So you get 3n. It has 7-8 cm like Phal Zheng Min Falcon (also a 4n x 2n). 3n grows very well like 4n. But their use for further breeding is limited.

Intense color species are around 4-5 cm - so hybridizers have to go to larger flower which lack the color intensity. Eventually we hope to see more 4n species become available - and so we have more 4n novelty down the road. Even 4n Phal bellina is slightly larger at about 6 cm. So to have a intense colored 9 cm with waxy texture like novelty is not going to be available any time soon.

So what do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Why novelty with intense color can't be made larger?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:25 am
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Location: Minnesota
Peter, I appreciate your points. I have never really liked the term "novelty" because the definition seemed unclear. I think you are proposing that only breeding within polychilos subsection would qualify as novelty. Flowers of all novelties should then have paired calli on the lips, rather than the single callus of the phalaenopsis subsection hybrids. Novelty hybrids would be intra-sectional hybrids of polychilos. Inter-sectional crosses between polychilos and phalaenopsis would be something else.

My pessimism is that as soon as we get polyploidy involved and move out to second and third generation crosses, parentage starts to get uncertain. Slip a little tetraploid amabilis or schilleriana in there and you get larger flowers with rounder shape and everyone gets excited. I think of the different crosses that were named with amboinensis as it was crossed to various white hybrids (mostly just tetraploid amabilis), even though Deventeriana was already amboinensis X amabilis. Dr. Stock made the point some time ago that Deventeriana 'Treva' was probably made with a tetraploid amabilis and this was behind at least some of the most popular Orchid World crosses - this helped them be larger. I think that lost labels and human fraility have made it very difficult to know the exact parentage behind a number of hybrids in most orchid genera. We even have difficulty being sure that some species aren't actually as pure as we might think!


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 Post subject: Re: Why novelty with intense color can't be made larger?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:13 pm 
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To me, novelty has always meant the smaller, waxy, colourful, less complex hybrids from section Polychilos and friends. Furthermore, to me it's pretty much anything other than the tetraploid, large white, pink, purple, multifloral, and harlequin types that have an average of 10+ generations behind them. Because of the observed breeding habits of what I call 'standard' Phals (so not novelties), where it's really hard to get any intense saturation or spotting or patterns, I think the only logical pathway is an en masse conversion of all of these novelty hybrids and species to tetraploids, so that we can combine these breeding lines that diverged so many years ago.

An example is a hybrid like Tying Shin Golden Age, where we're lacking solid and unfading colour, but have large flower size, upright spikes, and good vigour. Instead of messing around with dead end aneuploids, imagine converting a deep, non-fading, red LDBK and crossing the two together. I really think the area between novelties and standards will be the next golden age of Phalaenopsis breeding. We just need some reliable people to start converting a decent amount of novelties and species to get us off the ground. I'm honestly tired of people making aneuploids, because we know for the most part they're just dead ends.

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Last edited by TheBlazingAugust on Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why novelty with intense color can't be made larger?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:48 am
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The day they can make the novelties the size of standard with fragrant will be the death of our hobby..be careful what you wish for. who cares about size, i take an amazing novelty phal with colors than any standard phal any day and time. Less is more as we have seen with the death of multiflorals such as cullican and others..all of sudden this big foot nonsense is making a come back even though we had that a decade ago..novelties never went away and it is the only reason why i grow phals


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