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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:14 am 
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TxRobNLA wrote:
Using something as dark as Sogo Kaiulani is probably going to get you closer to red. A dark violacea is probably also going to give you reds. For a novelty cross, bellina hybrids seem to do a good job of both smoothing out the color and also keeping the saturation of the anthocyanins down to a level that gives you more orange tones than red tones.

This is what you get when you use a saturated violacea on a good yellow:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11503&hilit=princess+kaiulani

Penang Girl or a Penang Girl hybrid that has good color distribution would be a better choice. For instance Robert Bedard's cross of Mambo X Penang Girl resulted in some nice oranges. Some of them had spots, but then some of them the Penang Girl smoothed out the color there is no spotting.

One thing to keep in mind, most of the older select culivars of Penang Girl were actually made with bellina, not violacea.


Thanks again! Would something such as a Princess Kaiulani 'Chin Yo' also be a good idea if striving for an orange? Or would the amboinensis do weird things?

about bellina, thanks for that! Really interesting stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:21 am 
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It depends on what you breed it with. You can get spots from amboinensis, so if you don't want that you need the other parent to have the ability to keep the color smoothed out.


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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:23 am 
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Speaking of Princess Kaiulani 'Chin Yo', is it even possible for any form of violacea (including bellina) paired with any form of amboinensis to even make what we know as 'Chin Yo'? It is just so different from other Princess Kaiulani with its distinct and neon colours. I've been trying to figure this plant out for a while now, so I thought this would be a good place to ask! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:47 pm 
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TxRobNLA wrote:
It depends on what you breed it with. You can get spots from amboinensis, so if you don't want that you need the other parent to have the ability to keep the color smoothed out.


Awesome thanks! I gotta get a nice bellina to bloom or find something I can use in my hunt for ORANGE

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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:41 pm 
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I would look for either cultivars of bellina that have good track record of breeding orange tones of look for seedlings that from parents that have track record.

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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:26 pm 
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So if I'd cross my P. stuartiana var. nobilis with a cornu-cervi var. chattaladae? Would I get the normal Phalaenopsis Stewed Corn, or something a little more exciting? Just pure speculation at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:43 pm 
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That's a little hard to predict. It depends on what your definition of more exciting is. We have not seen enough results from chatt crosses to really be able to accurately say how they are going to breed. Based on the few I have seen, so far I have not seen any indication that chattaladae contains any genetics to keep the color spread out. So my guess is you would get a Stewed Corn with better than average spotting, probably a higher density and more intense color.

If you looking for a more solid red Stewed Corn, I don't think you would get it that way. Something like this might have a better chance of resulting in something with more color:

stuartiana var. nobilis X (cornu-cervi var. chattaladae x violacea var indigo)


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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:58 pm 
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TxRobNLA wrote:
If you looking for a more solid red Stewed Corn, I don't think you would get it that way. Something like this might have a better chance of resulting in something with more color:

stuartiana var. nobilis X (cornu-cervi var. chattaladae x violacea var indigo)

I do have a nice Valentinii I bought on eBay. Not sure about parentage when it comes to the violacea part in it, though. (See photo of flower). Already bloomed, so I'll have to wait until next year. Did see some veeeeeery nice and dark cornu-cervi var. chattaladae x bellina on a webshop as well.

Really good idea. Thanks! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:02 pm 
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That is a nice Valentinii. It does have the barring coming through, so crossing with stuartiana is going to accentuate that even more. But it should still be a really interesting cross.

cornu-cervi var. chattaladae x bellina could be really interesting to work with.


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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:17 pm 
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Rob, thank's for all the infos you patiently write/wrote down for all us newbies in hybridizing here! I move this topic to "Classic Forum" - think it already "deserves" it ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:42 pm 
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Rob, I was curious that you wrote "Self that alba or cross it to other albas and you will get all magentas because the error in the control gene get's fixed when the cross is made." I don't understand how the genetics of that would work; why would selfing produce all magenta offspring?


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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Not to speak for Rob, but crossing to another alba is more likely to restore the control gene, yielding all magentas. On the other hand, I'm not sure selling would yield magentas, as the control gene lack/error, is the same, and unlikely to be mutated by crossover during reassortment in all flowers. Surely a few will get 'repaired' or altered back to original. This wouldn't be the case with an alba crossed to another as the same 'error' doesn't likely exist in both flowers, rather disparate errors. This kind of situation would be more readily corrected in this cross example. Just my opinion, but would also love to hear from Rob. This has been an awesome read.

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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:45 am 
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Yes Jarad, that is the way I thought it would work as well. Many different gene failures can result in an alba. An alba could be the result of a broken pair of genes anywhere in the chain of color production. Crossing with another alba with a broken gene in some other part of the pathway would result in both of them getting one functional gene at each of those "broken" loci, so if the "normal" genes are dominant over their "broken" versions (which is likely), the progeny will be all magenta. This would not happen when an alba is selfed.

So I am eager to hear Rob's experiences on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:24 am 
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So the first thing, not all alba's are the result of a broken pigment control gene. But many are. I just used that case an example.

So when you start dealing with broken control genes, the results can vary drastically depending on the specific plant. In some cases the error is fairly stable and some cases it is not. So if you had 3 different alba violaceas and selfed each one, you would probably get three completely different results. In the less stable cases, a selfing will correct the error and you will get all magentas. Unfortunately you have no way of knowing what you are dealing with until you make a couple of crosses with the specific alba. It's one of the reasons cultivars with known breeding results can be so very valuable.

While we are on the topic here is one more bit of information for you. P. micholitzii has a very dominate control gene that turns off anthocyanin production and to a lesser degree turns off yellow pigment production. So you can use micholitzii to stabilize the "alba" form. It's one of the reasons Penang Violacea has been made a lot in Taiwan. It was the easiest way to mass produce an alba flower that is similar to violacea.


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 Post subject: Re: Colors and genetics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:30 am 
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Rob, this is the part Jarad and I don't understand: "In the less stable cases, a selfing will correct the error and you will get all magentas." How does the selfing correct the error in all progeny?


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