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 Post subject: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa (?)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:07 am 
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Some time ago we bought a young plant labeled Phal. tetraspis x speciosa. We bought it because we were curious to see its flowers.
For years already we watch the discussions around this topic and to speak for ourselves, as we are no experts, we haven't visited or searched faraway places and jungles, never ever seen these beautiful plants in their natural habitat, we were only able to form an opinion on what we've read. Our opinion is that most possible there's no more Phal. speciosa as described by Sweet e.g.
For us the interesting point was to see the nice colors of both orchids next to each other.
The pattern of our Phal. tetraspis C1 is really red and the plant labeled Phal. tetraspis x speciosa has a really nice lilac pattern.
That's why I wanted to post the two plants in this thread. Pictures were both taken yesterday, same room, same conditions (flashlight, setting a.s.o.)

Phal. tetraspis C1
Image

Phal. tetraspis x specios
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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:13 am 
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Ooo!!! :drool: That second one is FABULOUS!!! I wonder when this mess will be figured out?

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Last edited by TheBlazingAugust on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:30 am 
Hello Sylvi,

I would be very curious to see a close up of the lips.
Is there any difference form of the midlobe and in the pattern of the trichomes?

Could someone please give an opinion concerning the "subtle differences" of the midlobe and the pattern of the trichomes Christenson describes?

Thank you for posting this images!

Bernhard


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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:36 am 
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Agrumi wrote:
Hello Sylvi,

I would be very curious to see a close up of the lips.
Is there any difference form of the midlobe and in the pattern of the trichomes?

Could someone please give an opinion concerning the "subtle differences" of the midlobe and the pattern of the trichomes Christenson describes?

Thank you for posting this images!

Bernhard


Hello Bernhard,

I will post some details of both plants, hope the macros show the plant areas you need. If not just let me know what I need to take photos of ;) :D

details C#1
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Details Phal. tetraspis x speciosa (?)
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:11 pm 
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Agrumi wrote:
Hello Sylvi,

I would be very curious to see a close up of the lips.
Is there any difference form of the midlobe and in the pattern of the trichomes?

Could someone please give an opinion concerning the "subtle differences" of the midlobe and the pattern of the trichomes Christenson describes?

Thank you for posting this images!

Bernhard

Found this pic a while back.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:46 pm 
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JimL wrote:
Agrumi wrote:
Hello Sylvi,

I would be very curious to see a close up of the lips.
Is there any difference form of the midlobe and in the pattern of the trichomes?

Could someone please give an opinion concerning the "subtle differences" of the midlobe and the pattern of the trichomes Christenson describes?

Thank you for posting this images!

Bernhard

Found this pic a while back.
Image


P. speciosa has two calluses and P. tetraspis has three.

Ramon :D


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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:27 pm 
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Hey Ramon, maybe you or someone else could post some close-up pics of the C1 callus?


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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:04 am 
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JimL wrote:
Hey Ramon, maybe you or someone else could post some close-up pics of the C1 callus?


Thank's for your interesting post here - Jim - do you mean a center / front macro? Could try this later...

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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:25 pm 
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The callus is the little structure in between the side lobes. One of the side lobes could be taken off and a pic taken from that side.

Alain took a good pic of the tetraspis callus here on his site. http://www.phals.net/tetraspis/07ph0381.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:30 am 
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it´s really funny, but when you have a look for the two species on google, you get virtually the same pictures!

however, for tetraspis c1 (mine not flowering at the moment) you will only see flowers with RED spots, and when you search for speciosa, you will see flowers with more PURPLE in between.

maybe this is "bullshit", but:
i have an app on my mobile phone with which i can read the color, and seeing pics of tetraspis c1, the spots are always called "indian RED" or "crimson RED", which is close to RED without magenta tones.

picking out the more purplish flowers when searching for speciosa, the system always says "medium VIOLET" or "ORCHID", both are colors with a certain MAGENTA undertone.

consideing this in your plants, sylvi, i would say the first one is tetraspis c1 ("crimson" on my color reader), and the second one is the speciosa cross ("orchid" in my reader).

maybe not the "scientific" way to lighten up "the truth", but well :dance:

and now, let´s have a look on the two calli! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:36 pm 
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what a great post, and sylvi your photos are awesome!!

what I've always been curious about is if there is a difference in fragrance between the 'C#1' clone and other phals that are considered the normal strain of Phal. tetraspis, kinda like the difference between bellina & violacea.

sylvi, how do your plants smell???

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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:29 pm 
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I wouldn't get too excited about the lip shape/trichomes, color, etc. on these P. tetraspis plants. P. speciosa simply doesn't exist any more as a living plant and the plants from Sumatra have a much wider range of characteristics than were recorded for P. speciosa when it was extant so the simple diagrams and early description as recorded by Sweet and copied by "everyone", are pretty worthless in trying to analyze different cvs or clones of Sumatran P. tetraspis.
If you spent any time in the Nicobar and Andaman Islands you would see why it is so "academic" to discuss P. speciosa and its relationship to modern cvs of P. tetraspis now widely in culture.
Dean

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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:06 am 
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hi albert & all,
i had a "speciosa" appr. 20 years ago (from kuala lumpur), which had glossy flowers with a more or less white ground color and large purple red spots all over the perianth, so that the flowers looked +/- red. i did not have adequate literature then, so i had to take it as it was. i also had p. pulchra which was quite similar, but had some yellow in the lip, in contrast to "speciosa".

after a move to another appartment i lost most of the plants, unfortunately, and did not do anything with phals for 20 ys.

so, i did not know that p. speciosa is extinct(?). no more plants on the nicobar islands?

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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:18 am 
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lily-dude wrote:
it´s really funny, but when you have a look for the two species on google, you get virtually the same pictures!

however, for tetraspis c1 (mine not flowering at the moment) you will only see flowers with RED spots, and when you search for speciosa, you will see flowers with more PURPLE in between.

maybe this is "bullshit", but:
i have an app on my mobile phone with which i can read the color, and seeing pics of tetraspis c1, the spots are always called "indian RED" or "crimson RED", which is close to RED without magenta tones.

picking out the more purplish flowers when searching for speciosa, the system always says "medium VIOLET" or "ORCHID", both are colors with a certain MAGENTA undertone.

consideing this in your plants, sylvi, i would say the first one is tetraspis c1 ("crimson" on my color reader), and the second one is the speciosa cross ("orchid" in my reader).

maybe not the "scientific" way to lighten up "the truth", but well :dance:

and now, let´s have a look on the two calli! :)


Hello Markus,

Thank you for your friendly try to help, but I really never had any trouble to tell the two colors apart ;)
You should try to google Phal. speciosa and maybe read the threads in German and English so you will easily find out what I was trying to say in my first post.

Bryan, thank's for your friendly comments and your nice compliment concerning my photos :D - I didn't notice a scent, nor on our normal Phal. tetraspis, neither on C#1 or the so-called speciosa cross...

Dr. Stock, thank you for your reply, I have Christenson's book in our bookshelf, read a lot there and in other places and I totally go with him and you (even if I wasn't able to travel and explore myself) that the most likely is, that the original Phal. speciosa simply doesn't exist anymore (probably no one after the first drawings and descriptions in the natural habitat saw one again...)

I really wanted to compare the two flowers above, I like both and I would love to rename the second one, at least for our (me and my husband's) collection in something like "Phal. tetraspis 'C1 purple' " - that's why I always put the (?) behind "speciosa".

To me C1 red and C1 purple look almost the same, first callus on C1 purple appears bigger than on C1 red, maybe I find time to take another shot later - but as Dr. Stock pointed out - what's worth the effort? I would say - only to see the differences in both orchids - my basic idea, as stated above, was never to find any alleged proofs for Phal. speciosa in the cross...

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 Post subject: Re: Phalaenopsis tetraspis C1 vs. Phal. tetraspis x speciosa
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:36 am 
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lol, so, as i suspected, it WAS "bullshit" what i was talking of :)

but i hope u don´t mind - life goes on ....... :dance:

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